Curse

DarkNecrid · May 22, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Spurious argument. If Anet actually did it, it would, by definition, become 'intended'. What would be wrong with them doing it?

What is wrong with overpowered? Why should there be a limit?

yes, if they did it, it would be intended. Nothing would be wrong with it, because they make the game. Noting is wrong with overpowered in PvE, because its vs mobs.

yay.

arsie · May 22, 2008, 02:06 AM // 02:06

The Meth is right, consumables is probably a bigger impact that any skills.

They should tone it down a bit. Powerstone would be awesome just removing all DP, it really doesn't need to increase the 10% morale. The rest can have their powers reduced by half and still be popped like dietary suppliments.

Either that or make them last 10min, so we have to burn some gold if we want its effects.

We need 600++ hp from the Grail or whatever when we meet those crazy Ritualist bosses that do 550 damage with Spirit Rift, but other than that, most of HM is manageable with good pulling. So much shorter duration on consumables would do just that.

Burst Cancel · May 22, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

BTW, we already have a slightly less powerful chimera of intensity in the game: Consumables

You're missing the point. For my purposes it doesn't actually matter if consumables exist, or that it's Chimera. We could, for instance, have all characters with an inherent "double speed on everything" buff or "triple damage" buff, etc., and the reasoning would be the same. I picked Chimera because it's an effect that actually exists in the game, and therefore frames the issue in a more reasonable context.

We can talk about Win Buttons if you like though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsie

They should tone it down a bit. Powerstone would be awesome just removing all DP, it really doesn't need to increase the 10% morale. The rest can have their powers reduced by half and still be popped like dietary suppliments.

Either that or make them last 10min, so we have to burn some gold if we want its effects.

Why should they be toned down? And why should they cost any money at all? If you don't like them, you don't have to use them.

Lord High Pwner · May 22, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I'm sorry i cant help this. Lets revert Ursan Strike back to its original form lol no more touch range. OK i was joking all in all i think it was a decent choice of skills to try out. Lets hope we dont see many more on their.

Bront · May 22, 2008, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

PvE/PvP
Mesmer have gotten some attention in PvP and PvE. Nice buff on some of the skills (not too much but enough).

I disagree on this. The change to Energy Surge/Burn reduces over all damage done, which makes them less useful in PvE. I thought damage should have been changed to 10 per instead of 9 per.

Sab · May 22, 2008, 02:10 AM // 02:10

I feel epic already.

Ben-A-BoO · May 22, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

I am puzzled by this update.

- Why buff mainly 'passive' skills for PvE? (Is shadowform really the most interesting assassin skill for PvE?)
- Why not touch escape in PvP?
- Why kill flesh of my flesh as hard res?
...

I was expecting more.

SerenitySilverstar · May 22, 2008, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by timebandit

I was expecting more.

There will be more, depending on the success of this split. Be patient.

Burst Cancel · May 22, 2008, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Why do they need changing? They're fine as is. Stop failing.

Everyone is being stupid, NOTHING NEEDED CHANGING. Stop expecting huge changes to skills when there is no need.

No need? Hmm ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzy

PvE players tend to want extremely overpowered things and feel epic while killing lots of things.

MarlinBackna · May 22, 2008, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Splinter Weapon is still the shit. My Ritualist can put out ~30 damage from Barrage * 6 foes + 56 armor-ignoring * 3 (hits adjacent foes) * 5 (SW lasts 5 "attacks") = >1000 damage across six foes every 3 seconds or so (at 17 Channeling w/ an Essence). Have a good tank, and two Rit barragers, and any mob is easy as pie. Don't see why anyone needs it buffed, like the fact that Shadow Form really didn't need the buff.

I Can Cure Cancer · May 22, 2008, 02:29 AM // 02:29

The key word in that quote by Izzy is "WANT" no changes are needed, I'm fine with the game as is. Btw arguing that there's no downside to allowing Chimera of Intensity is just stupid. I don't want the game to be easy I want them to nerf Ursan and consumables to the ground. Chimera would be a disaster in terms of winning at HM actually meaning something.

sph0nz · May 22, 2008, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

That is why they invented PvE skills. End of discussion.

Exactly right. ANet would be better off making pve-only versions of some skills instead of this bullshit split; this way it would be easier to keep track of skills by completely seperating them into a new skill (new icon, new name) instead of this shit. However, if ANet did this, I'm sure most PvErs would cry because they can only have 3 pve-only skills on a bar.

This update just makes me rage with all of its ridiculous, miniscule changes in PvE compared to the PvP counterpart.

Burst Cancel · May 22, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Can Cure Cancer

The key word in that quote by Izzy is "WANT" no changes are needed, I'm fine with the game as is. Btw arguing that there's no downside to allowing Chimera of Intensity is just stupid. I don't want the game to be easy I want them to nerf Ursan and consumables to the ground. Chimera would be a disaster in terms of winning at HM actually meaning something.

Get over yourself. It doesn't matter what "you" want. Clearly, Izzy has stated that "PvE players" want something that you don't.

It doesn't matter if the game is easy - if you want it to be hard, you can simply choose not to use Ursan or Consumables. Why does it bother you that other people can? Aren't you just trying to control how other people play the game to fit your playstyle?

Oh, and serious point: winning at HM is and always has been meaningless. PvE was a joke before HM, it was a joke after HM, and everything Anet has done has only made it moreso. Ursan was just the capstone to a long line of changes according to the philosophy that Izzy has stated on record.

I Can Cure Cancer · May 22, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Get over yourself. It doesn't matter what "you" want. Clearly, Izzy has stated that "PvE players" want something that you don't.

Since when has what the majority wanted EVER been right? You have to take into account that the majority of players are newbs and more likely noobs. The fact that Anet is so easily swayed by popular opinion is pretty bad imo.

Burst Cancel · May 22, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

That is why they invented PvE skills. End of discussion.

Explain to me the downside of making everything optionally overpowered. Why not make PvE versions of all skills? Splinter Weapon can hit all targets in the area for 200 armor-ignoring damage. People who want it can use it. People who don't want to, don't have to. What's the catch? Where's the problem?

Make sure to articulate your argument clearly, because I'm an idiot and I need things explained in-depth. Humor me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Can Cure Cancer

Since when has what the majority wanted EVER been right? You have to take into account that the majority of players are newbs and more likely noobs. The fact that Anet is so easily swayed by popular opinion is pretty bad imo.

Where are you getting your definition of "right"? What you think? What makes you more right than "the majority"? What makes you more right than Izzy? Or me? Or the average moron on the street? We're talking about GW, not physics, so where is this 'right' coming from? Serious question.

And after you can articulate an answer to that question, here's the next one: does 'right' even matter here? Isn't 'right', in a business sense, whatever makes the majority of your customers happy? Isn't it whatever makes you the most money? Is there a more objective or meaningful definition of 'right' in this case? Again, serious question.

I Can Cure Cancer · May 22, 2008, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Where are you getting your definition of "right"? What you think? What makes you more right than "the majority"? What makes you more right than Izzy? Or me? Or the average moron on the street? We're talking about GW, not physics, so where is this 'right' coming from? Serious question.

And after you can articulate an answer to that question, here's the next one: does 'right' even matter here? Isn't 'right', in a business sense, whatever makes the majority of your customers happy? Isn't it whatever makes you the most money? Is there a more objective or meaningful definition of 'right' in this case? Again, serious question.

Firstly, the majority of customers don't even know when a skill is nerfed or buffed, and frankly they don't care. They don't post at fansites, they don't play 4 hours a day on workdays, they don't do elite areas in record times. Saying this, the majority doesn't know what they want and they don't care. They just want to play this game and have fun. If you nerfed the hell out of their build they wouldn't realize it, they'd just trash the build and start over. Izzy has stated before that he didn't think that splitting PvP and PvE was right. I personally think Izzy was fervently against it, but some higher up dev disagreed.

The majority will always adapt because they simply don't care. In PvP every nerf means a lot. Ursan made sure that no matter how badly things were nerfed due to the PvP meta at the time you could still steamroll areas with ease if you wanted to although it was boring. Or you could take the time to make a real build and do it the fun way.

Kikuta I'd argue further with you but you seem like the kind of person whose gonna engage in some serious flaming.

sph0nz · May 22, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Where are you getting your definition of "right"? What you think? What makes you more right than "the majority"? What makes you more right than Izzy? Or me? Or the average moron on the street? We're talking about GW, not physics, so where is this 'right' coming from? Serious question.

And after you can articulate an answer to that question, here's the next one: does 'right' even matter here? Isn't 'right', in a business sense, whatever makes the majority of your customers happy? Isn't it whatever makes you the most money? Is there a more objective or meaningful definition of 'right' in this case? Again, serious question.

Hah. Exactly. Successful businesses should operate with utilitarian ethics; the greater good for the greatest number (or the least harm) is the best solution. Furthermore, the "right" answer would be the one which produces the best results; there really wouldn't be any true objective answer. Utilitarianism prevails for the masses, and the masses is what is being dealt with in a business.

MisterT69 · May 22, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Can Cure Cancer

Firstly, the majority of customers don't even know when a skill is nerfed or buffed, and frankly they don't care. They don't post at fansites, they don't play 4 hours a day on workdays, they don't do elite areas in record times. Saying this, the majority doesn't know what they want and they don't care. They just want to play this game and have fun. If you nerfed the hell out of their build they wouldn't realize it, they'd just trash the build and start over. Izzy has stated before that he didn't think that splitting PvP and PvE was right. I personally think Izzy was fervently against it, but some higher up dev disagreed.

The majority will always adapt because they simply don't care. In PvP every nerf means a lot. Ursan made sure that no matter how badly things were nerfed due to the PvP meta at the time you could still steamroll areas with ease if you wanted to although it was boring. Or you could take the time to make a real build and do it the fun way.

What do you define as the majority? Can you honestly tell me the exact number of people and how often they play and all the stats you need to prove your statement? The fact is that people do care. Doesn't matter who you are. Most people know wth guildwiki is, and guru, and they know when the client server is loading up and it says files downloading, they know there's an update. Not everyone's a dumbass. They know how to play the game, whether it be w/ or w/o ursan, and they make do with what they got. This update's gonna affect both pve and pvp, so in reality, it does matter, and people WILL care. That's my two cents

fenix · May 22, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Explain to me the downside of making everything optionally overpowered. Why not make PvE versions of all skills? Splinter Weapon can hit all targets in the area for 200 armor-ignoring damage. People who want it can use it. People who don't want to, don't have to. What's the catch? Where's the problem?

Make sure to articulate your argument clearly, because I'm an idiot and I need things explained in-depth. Humor me.

The catch is that it would take a long time for Anet to make PvE version of all skills, but more importantly, PvPers would have to memorise ANOTHER 1000 skills, as there would be 2 lots of skill functionalities. As was discussed in Gladiator's Arena, if there are 2 versions of LoD, monks have to remember which version they are using when they PvP or they could accidentally use the skill wrong. Doing this for ALL skills would pose a large problem for those of us who play both PvP and PvE.

Plus, there is no need to buff everything heaps in PvE, it's easy enough as it is. Why make everything HUGELY overpowered when the monsters don't get any harder?

Burst Cancel · May 22, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Can Cure Cancer

Firstly, the majority of customers don't even know when a skill is nerfed or buffed, and frankly they don't care ... Saying this, the majority doesn't know what they want and they don't care.

It's a pretty popular tactic to say that the unwashed masses "don't know what they want" or "don't know what they really want" (because, supposedly, what they 'really' want is whatever the guy talking wants, obviously). You see it all the time in many contexts, and it's usually without any evidence or otherwise factual basis.

In this case, all evidence and reasoning is frankly to the contrary. Izzy's statement directly contradicts yours, and given that he's in a position to actually know what's going on, and you are not, I think I'll put more weight in his opinion than in yours. Second, if the majority of players really didn't care, Anet wouldn't be wasting resources implementing changes that effectively nobody notices. Anet already realizes that most of their playerbase doesn't post on fansites. Ergo, they know that the people who visit fansites aren't where the money is - so why should they care what we think? (partial answer: in a lot of cases, they don't) The logical conclusion is that there is some overlap in opinion between the masses and the whining that goes on in the forums. Third, it is frankly not credible that people wouldn't notice nerfs to their skills - they don't have to read forums to realize that, hey, my Splinter Weapon isn't making as many yellow numbers as it used to! Certainly, they won't notice the more subtle nerfs, or the nerfs to skills that nobody uses in PvE anyway - but think about it: those nerfs, by definition, aren't significant. In other words: any nerf that is significant in PvE will be noticed, by definition. If it wasn't noticed, it wasn't significant.